Prime Time Replay:
Mark Derr
on the Millenia-long Relationship Between
Humans and Dogs
MsgId: *brain_storm(1)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:02:51 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Good evening and welcome to another edition of Brainstorms. I'm your host, Rob Killheffer, and tonight my guest is Mark Derr, author of the intriguing new book, "DOG'S BEST FRIEND," which chronicles the many thousands of years that humans have been living with dogs. Welcome, Mark!
MsgId: *brain_storm(2)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:03:29 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
Greetings. I'm glad to be here.
MsgId: *brain_storm(4)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:05:39 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Here on Brainstorms we cover the study of the mind and the brain in all its aspects, so what interests me most is the history of humans and dogs is the nature of the special relationship that exists there, which (arguably) exists between no two other animal species. Where does that special bond come from?
MsgId: *brain_storm(5)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:07:05 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
The special bond probably predates Homo sapiens sapiens and is related to similarities in family and social structure between wolves and humans. Both educate their young, hunt and live cooperatively. They are intensely social. You can imagine how they got together.
MsgId: *brain_storm(7)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:09:53 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
One of the things you point out in your book is how common it has been over the millenia for humans not only to keep dogs as companions, hunting partners, and the like, but also as a food source -- and not just as a last resort. How does that special bond coexist with a predator/prey relationship? In societies that still use dogs for food, is the relationship the same as in those that don't?
MsgId: *brain_storm(8)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:10:24 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
If I can go out of turn, I'll also say that we seem to have an ability to understand each other. That ability has clearly been enhanced in the dog, as has trainability and sociability.Many societies treat dogs differently, and certainly those that eat them are no different. In the West, we value them for the work they do. Among Oceanic and many Native American and Asian societies they were eaten, but also kept as pets. These represent different cultural attitudes toward the animals.
MsgId: *brain_storm(11)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:14:38 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
About when did Western cultures stop eating dogs? And why do you think that difference in attitude emerged in Europe, but not in Asia?
MsgId: *brain_storm(12)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:16:46 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
My answer vanished. I'm not sure Europeans ever really ate dog. You should remember that dietary practices vary between cultures. Many consider pork unclean, for example. Certainly in Europe dogs are believed unfit to eat, I suspect because they were relied on so extensively as workers. Who wants to kill the best worker around?
MsgId: *brain_storm(15)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:19:47 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Turning to the deeper past again, I was surprised to read in your book that there was reliable evidence of a human-dog (or wolf) relationship even as far back as 500,000 years ago. Exactly how solid is that evidence?
MsgId: *brain_storm(16)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:21:49 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
The evidence relates to finds in caves in China of wolf remains and Homo erectus remains. My argument is that it is inconceivable that they are there by accident; rather they must have been living in proximity. The boundaries between the human and natural worlds were more pourous then. Remember recent DNA works shows that the dog probably originated 135,000 years ago. Surely wolves and humans were sharing space and food before then.
MsgId: *brain_storm(19)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:26:17 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
It's interesting because it also suggests the extent to which our own ancestors weren't so very different from us as we often think. Let's turn to the present: I live in New York, and I often think about all the dogs living in apartments, with little role beyond that of occasional companion (left mostly alone all day). What problems does that pose for dogs, and for humans?
MsgId: *brain_storm(20)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:28:12 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
Dogs are social creatures. They are not meant to live alone all day. They can't learn how to behave. They become depressed and lonely. They don't get enough exercise. Or attention, unless their owner is terribly diligent. I never have fewer than two dogs, just so they can have company. Having a dog in an apartment in a city is a hard choice that requires sacrifices on the part of the owner. Some people are willing to make them, and you see them running their dogs in the park. A great many are not and they end up with depressed, neurotic animals.
MsgId: *brain_storm(23)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:32:35 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
The urban/suburban lifestyle isn't the only downside of modern life for dogs -- you make it very clear in your book how the breeding and show culture has warped the very genomes of dogs, producing animals the suffer from a variety of congenital defects.
MsgId: *brain_storm(24)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:33:55 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
People have bred mutant dogs for no reason other than to suit their own fancy; in fact, we call the show world the "fancy". I think the habit is terrible for dogs because it creates animals of poor temperament and bad genetic health. Sure you can find good purebred dogs and good or bad, people love their pets dearly, but the practices are horrible for the talents and health of the dog.
MsgId: *brain_storm(25)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:34:25 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 168.100.204.58
Precisely -- haven't we bred dogs to be the companions of humans as opposed to the companions of each other. Can they really get lonely in the same way as wild species that have been honed by evolution -- as opposed to human engineering -- to need each other and not us.
MsgId: *brain_storm(27)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:35:48 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Guests: please hold your comments until Mark's done with his -- we don't want to confuse the thread of conversation. Thanks!
MsgId: *brain_storm(28)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:36:47 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
I missed your follow-up. Dogs have been selectively bred for at least 15,000 years for sociabililty and trainability, for dependence on humans. The problem with the show world is different. Those dogs are bred for nothing but appearance -- no temperament, no physical or emotional soundness. Take a good dog out, and you'll be suprised how well it can take care of itself -- not that it should have to. We want them as companions; we have, as you say, selected for that.
MsgId: *brain_storm(29)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:37:47 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Mark, you can address that comment from a member of the audience if you like. Meanwhile, let me ask: do you think the evolution of such extremes in the show world is a result of the lessening role of dogs as workers in our society? Only a toy dog could afford to be so inbred and unhealthy, yes?
MsgId: *brain_storm(32)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:40:00 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
Yes, the little yappy dogs have existed for thousands of years, as companions, but their proliferation is certainly related to a decline in the use of dogs for work.
MsgId: *brain_storm(33)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:42:17 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
What would you like to see happen in the shape of the human-dog relationship to make it healthier for dogs in the modern world? Given that the roles of dogs in work isn't likely to rebound soon, what can be done to avoid the damage?
MsgId: *brain_storm(34)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:44:00 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
Dogs must be bred for sound -- that is, nonaggressive -- temperament, for good health, and for physical soundness. People must be willing to use their dogs, if only to play catch with them and run them. Just because most of us don't "work" our dogs doesn't mean that we don't have an obligation to give them a fulfilling and active life. They must have those things. Anyone wanting passive layabout should get a doll.
MsgId: *brain_storm(36)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:46:48 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Are there some places or occupations where dogs could find useful work again? Those opportunities for satisfying old-fashioned work even seem to be drying up for people.
MsgId: *brain_storm(37)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:48:28 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
You know people get involved in various field and hunting trials, including no-kill hunts, others enter frisbee competitions or agility work. Others just go hiking. Your larger point -- that the world is closing in on us is apt. We are running out of space for ourselves and dogs. Often people face restrictions on what they can do. I say fight back, as best you can.
MsgId: *brain_storm(39)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:51:39 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
We're getting close to the end of our show, and before we're done I'd like to focus a little on the more personal dimension of our relationships with dogs. I've had some very important dogs in my life, dogs that I've considered every bit as much a part of my family as my brothers and sister, and from your book it seems you have as well. Do you think there's something special that we can get from relationships with dogs that we can't necessarily get from our contacts with other people -- things we learn, things we experience?
MsgId: *brain_storm(40)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:54:39 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
I think dogs provide an important connection to the world outside ourselves, call it the natural world, but they also teach us how to observe other beings and learn to read them, how to think about another creature and take responsibility for it. They show us that animals have will, intelligence, and rich inner lives. I think by studying dogs, you can learn alot about people. Dogs, amuse us, save lives, get us out and about in the world, a world that is perceptually different for them. If we try to see the world in that way, we learn a great deal.
MsgId: *brain_storm(42)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:57:33 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Having had pets all my life, I've often wondered to what extent dogs also learn things from their involvement with people. There are some who think that much of our individual personalities emerges as a result of social interaction; do dog personalities become more humanlike -- or at least different from what they would have been, without human interaction?In connection with that I'll just offer the brief note from my own family: when my youngest brother was a kid, he believed for some years that our dog was another brother -- just an oddly-shaped, furry one -- and when asked about his siblings at school he'd include the dog. And that dog behaved in many ways like he thought of himself as one of the people.
MsgId: *brain_storm(44)
Date: Fri Aug 22 23:00:20 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
There is no question that dogs learn how to behave in human society and become idiosyncratic in their habits. They read us, they manipulate us, they talk to us. Whether they become more human or we more doglike, I can't say although I supect the latter. Still, they do learn to act like us.My ten-year-old leopard dogs certainly have habits that are similar to mine in terms of walking, acting around the house, responses to people. Dogs have great associative minds and are keen observers. They watch us because in many ways they depend on us for food, exercise, and shelter. That whats makes our responsibility so great.
MsgId: *brain_storm(46)
Date: Fri Aug 22 23:04:01 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
The clock has ticked past eleven, so our time is up. Thanks for coming on tonight, Mark -- I've enjoyed it. And to all the dog-lovers out there, I recommend Mark Derr's book, "DOG'S BEST FRIEND" -- a must-read for caninophiles. And on that note, this is Rob Killheffer, signing off for Brainstorms. Good night!
MsgId: *brain_storm(48)
Date: Fri Aug 22 23:05:24 EDT 1997
From: mark_derr At: 207.146.105.14
Thank you. I enjoyed the experience and think I'm finally getting the hand of this. Good night.
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